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Patrick Calahan

re: Pegasus

"I am not convinced that at the end of it all, the characters are going to be proud of their actions."

What does this have to do with whether or not it was good television?

'Pegasus' was one of the best episodes yet, hands down.

The Box

"Instead of using what we had, new elements were introduced to make it all seem fresh and exciting. The first season didn’t need to do that. I do not think the second needed to either."

This was spot on, dude. Totally agree.

Stuff I'm not sure I like:

THE BLACKBIRD STEALTH VIPER.
I dunno if you followed Star Trek: Voyager, but thee crew did something similar when they decided to build a pimped-out version of their space shuttle. It then became a device for stories on planets, something which seemed a bit too convenient to me. I hope we don't see the Blackbird used as this secret weapon they pull out regularly to win battles against the cylon or for lame reconnaisance missions.

SHARON
Not so much any particular Sharon, but teh very concept of teh Sharon model as one whose cover has been blown. I don't see how the current (pregnant) one is going to survive beyond her pregnancy without turning into Galactica's equivalent of Seven of Nine. The mini-series and Season 1 really did a good job of the whole paranoia thing when tehy discovered the cylons looked like humans now. I don't see how they could ever trust her. And if they did, well. That'd be too easy wouldn't it?

And, did I miss something or didn't they fly a Heavy Raider back into one of the ships when they returned from Caprica? Where's that ship? Why hasn't shit happened there?

Trapper Markelz

Patrick - The reason it has to do with whether it is 'good tv' comes back to what my primary contrast between season one and season two is.

In season one the characters did things based on their own internal motivations. Adama's choice to launch an all out attack on the Pegasus seems like such a far departure from his "military" mind. Although we have been seeing a much more emotional Adama, I still question whether that move is going to be good for his character. Adama's strength is his balancing effect on Roslin's more emotional and irrational following of prophecy and spiritual visions. Sure, in the past Adama does irrational things for "family" (You Can't Go Home Again) but he is essentially giving up all the moral high ground he has worked to sequester. From that aspect, I don't know if I am going to like Adama as much if it plays out how the cliffhanger leaves it. That is all I am saying.

I agree that Pegasus was a great "story" episode... I am just not sold on it being a good "character" episode... I reserve judgement until I see episode eleven. That is primarily why it wasn't included in my top episodes from the first half of season two.

If you read my write up of Pegasus, you will sense my conflicted praise. I did not like how many of the characters acted in the situation. We were set up by the writers to think of the entire Pegasus as this place of evil and debauchery. The bad apples were emphasized, but the rest of the crew (people like the Pegasus CAG and such) aren't doing anything out of the ordinary for a military situation. I feel like we were set up to cheer for the slackers (Galactica) and praising Starbuck and Apollo for "sticking it to the man" and doing there own thing. I expect more from character who we hold up as our righteous heros in the show.

That is why I say: "I am not convinced that at the end of it all, the characters are going to be proud of their actions."

I feel like the characters are being made to act how the story requires them to act... not how they would really act in those situations.

To contrast this, I believe Helo and Tyrol behaved perfectly in-line with their honorable and loyal characters... The results were tragic, but the entire situation was believable to me.

Trapper Markelz

The Box - As for the Blackbird, I understand your concerns... however Deep Space Nine did a similar thing with the Defiant and I think that was a great addition to the show. So I think it can be good or bad depending how the writers use it. They have to be careful not to use it as a fall back device... the secret solution to all their problems. To use DS9 as an example, they had a cloaking device on the Defiant for awhile and it seemed like they could seriously exploit that, however they imposed some strict limitations that made it believeable that they couldn't simply fly around invisible and untouchable whenever they wanted. Hopefully such limitations will also be a factor in the use of the Blackbird... for instance maybe only Starbuck is good enough to fly it... and it only fits one person... and it has bad fuel consuption so there is limited range... etc.

I totally agree with your points about Sharon. After using her to destroy that entire Cylon fleet, the writers are on some dangerous ground.

I also agree about the Heavy Raider. That thing seems like an offensive powerhouse, and would at least be worthy of a few research scenes by Tyrol and his crew (just like Kara's Raider).

Carlos

Oh I see, so Pegasus wasn't a memorable episode. Right, got it.

Trapper Markelz

Carlos - To me it will depend on how it all shakes out in episode 2.11... as it stands, I find myself less impressed with Pegasus than many seem to be. As cliff hangers go, Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II was way better.

SuperTroy

TM:To me it will depend on how it all shakes out in episode 2.11

Bingo, if "Resurection Ship" doesn't live up to the promise of Pegasus..... It'll affect my enjoyment of Pegasus.

A good buildup is less than satisfing if the follow through sucks.

Carlos

Trapper,

nah, you judge each episode on its own merits. If episode one is average but episode two is excellent, does that make episode one excellent too? No, it's still average.

Kobol Gleaming 2 was an excellent episode, but the follow up Scattered was good but less than excellent. Even if Resurrection Ship is average it doesn't keep Pegasus from being a tight ass script. If the follow through sucks, then it's the follow through that sucks, not the build up.

Trapper Markelz

Carlos - We might have to agree to disagree on that. Pegasus was good, but I just didn't like it as much as many people did due to what I feel is a departure from the characters. Also, it isn't like we couldn't see the confrontation coming from a mile away so as a cliff hanger, it wasn't nearly as effective as Kobol's Last Gleaming II.

I feel the five episodes I listed from season two in my commentary above were much more enjoyable as a viewer... but that is only my opinion.

Carlos

>>>Pegasus was good, but I just didn't like it as much as many people did due to what I feel is a departure from the characters.

What? give examples.

Yes, we knew that the confrontation between Galactica and Pegasus was coming-- just like we know what's coming in most movies ever made. You know the good guy's going to win, right? And you know he gets the girl, right? And you know the bad guy dies, right? Being kept in the dark about the final outcome is not the sole criteria (by a longshot) of a good script. A good script is determined by how it gets you from point A to point B. And in Pegasus that journey from point A to B was excellently done. I could go on about it specifically, but I think it speaks for itself.

Trapper Markelz

Carlos - See my response to Patrick in the comments above as well as my write up for specific examples and a more nuanced explanation of my trepidation over Pegasus... although that doesn't mean you will agree with it.

http://www.battlestarblog.com/2005/09/thoughts_on_peg.html

As far as your explanation of what makes a good script, since it is a creative process that hinges on the perceptions of the viewers, it is not so black and white. Sometimes a good script is how you get there... I call that a "journey story"... some scripts are about the big reveal... I call that a "destination story".

I honestly believe Pegasus was suppose to be a journey story (part of the reason why I don't think the cliff hanger was really a big deal) but at the end I just didn't like the journey... Apollo... Starbuck... Adama... Baltar... all great performances... but you had Apollo and Starbuck acting like spoiled brats putting their own interests first after what seemed like only a few hours knowing this crew and their intentions. You had Adama giving up his moral high ground about the "chain of command" that was reinforced the entire show. You had Baltar confessing his love for Six after numerous episodes of defiance against her. The worse part is that these character behaviors seemed directly related to the plot.

In a good script the plot and story devices are transparent and the characters act believably given the situation. It is my opinion that in Pegasus the fact that I was jarred by the character behaviors and found myself questioning the validity of their intentions that the writing failed in those instances. I only mention it because it rarely happens in other episodes on this show, so to me it was extra noticable.

Carlos

Trapper,

You said in response to that excellent review of Pegasus that "I also agree that the scene where Baltar professes his love for Six was very surprising and powerful. Great work by James Callis in this episode." Those were your words. Now, in my opinion that sounded like a positive comment about Pegasus. Now you say you were "jarred" by such character behaviours. Will the real Trapper please stand up!

But surprised? Jarred? Why? Not that there's anything wrong about a script that surprises you, but Baltar has been having sex with her everyday since before the mini series. You shouldn't have been surprised.

Yes, Apollo and Starbuck acted like two spoiled brats because as far as military discipline is concerned, that's what they are-- spoiled brats. Adama was willing to put up with it because they're all he's got. With the arrival of Pegasus, however, the rules have changed. The script was true to the characters and to the plot.

Why the change of heart Trapper?

Trapper Markelz

Carlos - You will also see above where I said: "Apollo... Starbuck... Adama... Baltar... all great performances..."

So in the case of Baltar yes, great performance, great work as an actor within the scenes he was given. But from a writing standpoint, I still didn't get his cross over into love. It just didn't seem real to me. Sure he has been having sex with her, but come on... you know Baltar as well as me... sex to him is purely hedonistic and detached. It is a big step for him to profess love. And the way the writers unvieled that just didn't work for me.

I think my feelings on the writing of the Pegasus episode and the second season as a whole have been consistent. This second season has been a different type of writing... a writing about plot and story instead of about characters. Early in the season I was open to this, but as it has progressed, I feel it has lead to sloppiness in the actions of the characters... they have become puppets to the needs of the writing...

It is funny you bring up Baltar because he is one character I feel has suffered the most. Look at his exposure in season two compared to season one. He use to be an active character on the show and a serious point of interaction amongst the crew... now he is a just a tool, showing up to offer some pedantic technobabble about Cylons or some worthless shifty look.

Carlos

Trapper,

I agree with you on Baltar. He's not being used to his full potential. I was watching Fragged last night and it was sad how buffoonish his role is becoming. He's lost that edge he had in the miniseries. I suppose having a cylon in your head will do that to you.

It's not only that Baltar has been having sex with her, but you have to consider that his entire life as he knew it has dissapeared, and Six is pretty much his only friend in the world now. You also have to consider that seeing Six on the floor beaten to a bloody pulp might awaken a side of Baltar that we haven't yet seen. Remember, these aren't cartoon characters. They are 3-dimensional, complex and "real" people here (or that's the idea).

Trapper Markelz

Carlos - I may be knitpicking a little bit on Baltar's confession of love. You are correct that seeing her in physical form as vulnerable as she is on the floor of the prison is going to bring to the surface a nurturing and protective set of emotions that he could perceive as love. I will have to watch that scene again... I was simply explaining my initial reaction to the scene...

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