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Marshdog

Also, they were missing one of the cylons that has been shown previously. They must not have been able to get the actor who played the character (he was the one in the first season where Starbuck was interrogating the cylon). This really bothered me, continunity wise.

Trapper Markelz

Marshdog - I haven't listened to the podcast yet, so I am wondering if there is a good explanation for all of this... maybe they will explain later that there is a good reason only a few models are involved with Caprica. Maybe different models have different sectors... but yeah... Simon was on Caprica to begin with... so he should have been somewhere in the shots.

Asa

I definitely saw Simon (the doctor Cylon from "The Farm") in the Coffee Shop. I think I saw Loben Conoy (The one Starbuck interrogated in "Flesh & Bone") in the background, though I'm not sure.

I forgive them for only showing 5 models on Caprica, showing more would have ruined the surprise for no good reason. Given that you don't want to reveal other identities, I'd rather they do this kind of episode than not do it at all.

Paul Karpenko

Yeah, Simon was definately shown in this episode.

And there are six known Cylons, not five.

Leoben
Doral
Simon
D'anna
Sharon
Six

Paul Karpenko

Oh, you meant five on Caprica, not all together. My bad.

Trapper Markelz

Asa - While I was talking with Paul Karpenko at work, I was explaining how I would have at least liked them to reveal another model... since they went through all the effort of being inclusive about all the models currently involved.

In the past, the reveal is always part of some sort of character interaction with the fleet. I believe they had a unique opportunity to unveil a cylon model that we haven't met yet in the fleet, someone that no one has met yet, making us the audience scrutinize every scene to see if the new Cylon model is there... in the background... unknown to the crew.

But, they chose not to do that. No big deal, i think just it would have made things interesting.

Brian

It seems that we had the same thoughts and reactions to this episode. My one additional question is: who is Number One? We learned that four of the known models are 3, 5, 6, and 8. We don't know who Number One is. I have to wonder whether Number One has some leadership position among the Cylons.

THE PLAN

Asa

You remind me of the classic line from "The Prisoner": 'Who is number 1? I am number 2, you are number 6! I am not a number, I am a free man!"

It would be funny if the numbering order had something to do with level of authority. What I thought was interesting was that number 6's mental Gaius was making her more human, whereas Gaius's mental Number 6 has been drawing him towards the Cylon cause. I can imagine a future where Caprica-6 and Galactia-Gaius meet and they discover that the former has been converted to the human causes whereas the latter has become a Cylon follower.

Also there are so many versions of number 6 bouncing around the show (ignoring all the others on Caprica) that I'm having difficulty keeping them all straight. Technically what keeps the Cylons on Caprica from having different hairstyles as well as clothes? (It would be impossible for the actors, but I'd like to see the same models with different wacky hairstyles)

RK Bentley

I think the episode was a big turn around from the dreck of the last few weeks.

I think the whole chip not planted in Baltar's head is a load of bs.

In my mind it's easier to have the Cyclons to inplant something in Batlar's head that the Galactica's sensors can't "see" (she's an old ship and this isn't star trek, a quick static burst of information wouldn't be too hard to do) and whoever the Six he sees and whoever the Baltar Caprica Six sees is running this entire show back on the Cylone Homeworld.

If I'm wrong then so be it.

I just find it hard to believe thst in a world of Vipers, robots, downloadable memories and giant starships both of these people are having talks with their conciousness/IDs/superegos during peak moments.

Adric

Regarding the missing Cylons on the planet - the Battlestar Wiki says that the actors weren't actually in the ep at all, just brief shots of look-alikes (for Simon and Loben).

Also noted on the Wiki is that the Cylon numbers seem to have something to do with apparent age - with older-looking models having lower numbers. Presumably number 1 has a middle-aged appearance (i.e. about Adama or Roslin's age...) and yeah, might be the "Imperious Leader" from the old show.

In any case, it does seem that D'anna Biers/Number 3 subtly "outranks" 6 and 8 in some way.

Reagarding MIA Lee ---> it's not just a matter of him being MIA commanding the Pegasus but also having not been at the meeting where they decide what to do with the cylon child. TIgh was there, but not Lee, even though Lee now outranks Tigh and is presumably part of the command staff. So Lee's promotion still bugs me a lot. The writers seems to be going out of their way to avoid having to deal with the part of the story where Tigh reacts to Lee's promotion.

I agree with the comments made on Laura Roslin - she's tough, and yes, I think presented as tougher than Adama in a lot of ways - and I don't like that. One of the things that got me to keep watching the miniseries was the presentation of Adama as someone aloof and almost infallible - just like he had been in the old show. I'm not sure I really like him having been upstaged by the new president character in this way.

That said, I think Roslin is a VERY interesting character - largely for the same reason. She comes into the show as a reluctant politician, but in fact that was never true. She is a career politician and a professional and damn good at what she does.

Regarding Baltar's imaginary friend - I think there must be more to it than that. Remember the first season ep. "Six Degrees of Separation?" Baltar laughs at God, and so the Number Six in his head goes offline for a bit, and a real version of the model coincidentally shows up? I don't think we have the answer to the visions yet.

I agree that the scenes on Caprica look contrived due to the lack of the other models. They probably should have waited till later to do this episode, yeah. But it was still a great ep , and I second whoever it was that said that this was a nice break from the doldrums the show has been in recently. This is the first episode after the show lost its way that I really feel like things are starting to get back on track (as entertaining as "Captain's Hand was," a lot of stuff still felt wrong).

Adric

HA! It turns out to have been RK Bentley, post just above mine - who said it:

"I think the episode was a big turn around from the dreck of the last few weeks."

Hear, hear!

Peter

It was a lot of fun to watch the Cylons behaviour on Caprica. Their main activities seem to be planting trees, drinking coffee, and standing around looking absent minded. This all leaves me feeling confused. What are the cylons doing on Caprica?

D'anna said to Caprica six, "There is talk of boxing Sharon." Who is talking about this? Does this mean that the cylons have a group of leaders? If so, it's going to be interesting to see which models are part of the Cylon inner circle.

Elliott

Perhaps the visions Baltar and Six are experiencing really are visions sent from God, and have nothing to do with the Cylon agenda. It's like the Six-Vision said in 'Hand of God' - that God doesn't pick sides, and that He isn't just 'the Cylon god' - and 'Home, Part 2' - that she was an angel sent from on high.

Perhaps the Cylons don't actually 'hear' God, the way the mini-series made it appear (with Six's 'I've been waiting for you' line). I think the fact that CapricaSix and GalacticaBoomer are challenging what it means to follow God's will - that genocide, even in His name, is wrong, etc. - is proof that the Cylons are merely acting in His name, rather than communicating with Him on a personal basis.

If what I postulate is the case, then God may be looking out for both the Cylons, and for Man. And the hybrid child could be the key to uniting them both.

Cpt Chaos

for me this was the worst episode of the whole series! While "Epiphanies" had many logical errors (baltars nuke, miracle cure) it a least had a decent execution (e.g. good acting, editing, lot of tension, interesting flashbacks etc.)
But THIS ONE was bad acted (e.g. Lucy Lawless aka Xena was sooo bland horrible), bad written and had more major plot holes than I could possibly count.
I dont know but more and more I get the impression that the writers make everything up as they go along. Like one poster on the official scifi.com forums said: "The cylons have a plan - And the writers don't know what it is." This ep was the perfect opportunity for them to show us at least A GLIMPSE of the cylon plan / their mindset / their motivation for destroying humanity - But NO, instead we get smug coffee drinking cylons smalltalking about their war heroes and centurions planting trees. And how convenient that of course we only saw the 6 models we already know!
The only positive things were the opening with 6 and sharon reincarnating (matrix style) and the talk between 6 and imaginary baltar (although this also bothers me: now it will be much more harder to find a logical and plausible explanation for the imaginary 6 in baltars head...it can't be that baltar is just nuts)
After all, this a major downfall after scar, sacrifices and the captains hand (which imho were quite satisfying).
I can only hope that the season finale will compensate for it!

greetings
Cpt Chaos

Aragorn

I have to say... I don't particularly like anders. To be more specific, I see what his place in the storyline is, and I definitely think it was a great idea, and very necessary...

But I am totally unimpressed with the actor, as I don't think he stands up to the rest of the cast, even those who don't appear too often. Even moreso, I don't like the character it's self very much.

Trapper Markelz

RK Bently - You may think "the whole chip not planted in Baltar's head is a load of bs." but eventually we will all have to recognize that in interviews and podcasts Ron Moore continually calls the projection of Number Six a psychosis. That means that it really is all in their head... no techno-babble solution... just simply biological malfunction based on trauma.

If you really want to examine what the most simple solution is, the rule of Ockham's razor would say that it is far simpler for it to all be in their head than having it be a chip requiring fancy and undetectable streaming of digital content complex enough to create an interactive mental projection.

I definitely started out thinking it was a chip... but Downloaded proves to me that it is not.

winston

I have to disagree with both of your criticisms and agree whole-heartedly with your praise.

First, while I understand your curiosity about the other Cylon models, always remember that the story is paramount and revealing additional models would have done nothing to advance the story. And, since we may need to deal with those actors/characters again, it makes no sense to spend time on that at the expense of getting the story right. And they got the story very right.

As for Six's killing of the baby in the miniseries, you may recall that after the murder, Six's face is not that of a cold-blooded killer. I think she was immediately bothered by it. But her compromise of the defenses of Caprica wasn't as personal as killing a baby, so she was able to continue with her mission. Only after rebirth, did she start dealing with the personal aspects of what she had done, thereby conforming with what I think were her emotions regarding the baby's death in the miniseries.

Aaron

What if the other Cylon models opposed the destruction of Caprica and the attack in general? What if the other models were content with life on the Cylon home world and wanted to live in peace? Maybe there is a third force out there that the fleet will need to deal/make an alliance with?

This is farfetched, but could explain the missing models.

Or, the missing models could be 'boxed' as was refered to in the episode. Maybe Caprica 6 and Sharon will try to set other 'boxed' models free?

vincent formosa

I like the discussion springing up about this but I do think ron moore and the writing team should have done more to address what the Cylons plan in returning to the colonies and attempting to nuke them out of existence was?

after all, the whole reason Caprica Six was sent to 'love' Batltar was to get into the colonial defence net.

sure, she has remorse for enabling billions to get nuked, but that was her mission after all and she was a willing part of that.

however, if we now flip that. it seems obvious that this six had never been resurrected before, so this reminder of her own mortality may have been the thing that gets her to thinking about what she has done.

I'm also not bothered about her not mentioning the baby she snapped like a twig immediately before the holocaust as I could quite easily see her lumping its death in with everyone elses considering it happened the same day.

galactica sharons reaction and the cylon view of it reminds me very much of some scenes from Bladerunner and perhaps this is where Ron Moore is going with this.

Tyrell says 'more human than human' in bladerunner and that phrase fits this moment perfectly. Gsharon is a machine, but she was never programmed from the outset to ever believe she was anything other than human. so when the 'programming' kicks in and she attempts to off Adama, and in her own mind succeeds (remember, she doesn't know he survived) her 'human' side remains dominant because to her, she was human and cannot reconcile this change, particularly after she is resurrected.

regards caprica six I think we are seeing an interesting paradox here.

up till now, the six's we have seen have been driven, ruthlessly decisive and even pegasus six knew what she was and did what she did to achieve a specific goal.

pegasus six strayed from the cylon path when she was abused physically and mentally to the point that she wanted to die rather than be resurrected, as the pain she had gone through made her 'appreciate' in a sense, her mortality. that you have one life to lead and you make the best of the time you have.

caprica six has strayed once she faces what she has done. logically as a machine, she shouldn't give a damn, but it is clear that by adopting a religious path, ie the rejection of the colonial religion in favour of a single mystical being, the cylon logic can be swayed by religious considerations and that even their own religion can clash ideologically with their stated goal. ie near the end of the episode when Lawless' character says 'god loves me' as she is about to off Anders, even though , I think its sharon reminds her that its wrong to kill and she knows the difference between right and wrong.

looking at the plan. if the plain objective was to kill/eradicate mankind, they've done a piss poor job of it.

if the plan was something more, then this fits with their hounding but not total destruction of the human fugitives. perhaps they want the survivors to have a moment of religious clarity and to embrace the new cylon religion. the only problem with that is we don't know what the agenda of the religion is, plus they don't exactly have anyone touting the cylon religion in the fleet. I dion't think pegasus 6 counts here as she is in the with the peace activists although one could argue that she could be steering them in this direction.

also, if they wanted to eradicate mankind, then why use them as breeding stock? its obvious that the cylons wish to transcend their creators and to some extents have done so. however, it also seems that they wish to transcend their own logic, this is illustrated by their needing to use humans to breed/reproduce. they are wanting human genetic material to introduce random factors in appearance, genotypes etc. ie to go beyond the 12 cylon models that exist.

after all there is a reasonable TNG episode that illustrated a colony that had insufficient numbers to genetically survive and continue so they had turned to cloning themselves to survive. this is a similar paradox. the cylons have won the war, but what have they gained?

humanities children have returned home, but now seem to be seeking a religious ascension to further their 'species' and make it, in a sense more organic, random, at a time when they themselves have followed logic. it would appear that by adopting a religious base to their lifestyle, they are wanting to go beyond they cold machine logic and become 'more human.'

one final point. are the cylons on Caprica aware of the destruction of the resurrection ship?

could Lawless character on caprica not in fact be resurrected, which would give caprica six and galactica sharon more time to get their new peace manifesto across to the other cylons?

after all, if she resurrects and dobs them in, I doubt they'd last long.

if that is the case, then this plays neatly into the last two epsiodes of this season which we know revolve around a cylon peace offer.

also, who is going to carry the message?

if caprica six does it, will we see her reveal herself and her feelings to Gaius? what will his reaction be? what will his mental six's reaction be. she would probably consider the caprica six to be weak, a heretic who has strayed from the true path of gods plan. but then, gaius has also fallen for the pegasus six, anotehr 'heretic' who wanted to die rather than be resurrected, so I see him being extremely conflicted here.

if galactica sharon goes, then chief tyrol gets to play...awwwww. he gets his 'sharon' back. he has certainly looked a little jealous when he has seen Helo and Sharon together. plus when we consider his actions with helo in the pegasus episode it is clear he still has feelings for her.

Roslin and Adama. it is interesting how their roles have switched in recent weeks. Adama has become softer and more human, Roslin more hard edged and willing to make the hard choices.

both characters have had a brush with death this season. adama's was unexpected and I think this reminder of his mortality has been deeply played by Olmos. he swayed from anger, to obstinacy to humanity and a feeling that petty differences can be ignored if it means getting his family back (both extended and familial) re his forgiveness of Roslin on Kobol and his closer ties and faith in Lee.

Roslin on the other hand had time to reconcile herself to dying. she knew in advance she had terminal breast cancer and in my mind had gradually been cutting her ties. now she is cured and very much alive. also, the arrival of Cain I think shocked her into being more decisive, as Cain's conduct was a clear indication of what happens to the military when out of the control of a civil administration. obviously this is an extreme example and nothing suggests she thinks adama would behave in the same way, but by the same token, ever since Cain showed up, Roslin has been much tougher and willing to make the difficult play.

which leads me to Zarek. although not in this episode there is a posit here that I think Ron Moore missed.

On Kobol, we saw his pragmatic side very much in evidence. when his sidekick was propmpting him to act, he wavered. does this indicate Zarek is weak? or sneaky? or both?

also, although he seems jealous of roslins role of prophet, does he have any religious convictions that have been shaken by what he saw on Kobol? he certainly seemed impressed at the time.

In the early part of next season I want to see Roslin, the search for earth etc back into the picture. it was a major arc to the early part of season two. and the reason d'aitre for the fleet continuing on its course.

inf act since, Home Part 1 and 2, not one word about earth, finding the constellations that point the way etc has even been mentioned. lets get back to that a bit please.

of course, now that Roslin is no longer dying, ie presumably no longer taking Charnalla, will she still take it for visions etc.

has the book of Pythia been fully explained. after all, heres a leap.

are the cylons the 'lost' 13th tribe. after all, they are sentient, they have goals, a conscience, a civilisation.

could it be twisted in this sense so that the finding of the 13th tribe is the integration of cylons and humans into a new society?

my brain is fried, go play, debate.

Josiah


What a fascinating episode! Definitely left me primed for the two-part season finale.

Regarding the now dual voices inside the heads of Baltar and Six, I can't quite accept that it's purely psycological, i.e. "in their heads."

Because, if Six died in Baltar's house on the day of the attacks, then isn't it likely Baltar died too?

I remember thinking about this when I saw the miniseries, because from the shot of the blast, it looks like a nuclear explosion rips through Baltar's house. Six does say "get down" and he kinda crouches behind her. But c'mon -- as spectacular as Six's legs are, I don't think they're enough to shield Baltar from a nuke (or even an explosion large enough to rip his house apart).

But if he died, then he's either a cylon or somehow got a new body using methods similar to the cylon downloading process. As far as we know, he's certain he's human, but he wouldn't be the first "sleeper."

We have not seen any of the cylon's leadership hierarchy, and thus far it's not clear who/what gives orders and how those orders are sent throughout the cylon population.

But perhaps Baltar-Six connection is known only to the imperious leader or whomever's in charge? Perhaps the fact that the child Sharon carried (which she thought was her own) was really Baltar and Six's (if true) has something to do with this.

Anyway -- what a way to come down the stretch for Season Two!

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